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LSATURN01 wrote:

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Tiburones5 wrote:

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LSATURN01 wrote:

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The recovering addict CRAP comment was made because I am not going to make excuses for Whitney Houston as a fan for her not promoting her music and bad vocals all the time. I have defended Whitney left and right on this board so I am not going to take offense to what some of you are saying. As far as me bringing up other artists it was just an example showing that most artists go through adversity at some point in the careers and come out of it some well others not. Whitney is still coming thru hers obviously I just want her back on top the other artists I mention imo don't compare to Whitney really if you ask me as far as beauty talent and influence. That is why I am not going to give her a pass on her drug past yes it effected THE VOICE but move on from there. Her touring when she obviously wasn't' up to the task I was for her touring if the shows were spaced out and gave her voice time to recover. To the member bring up Celebration and Number Ones like I said greatest hits collection since Whitney didn't promote hers Madonna and Janet get a pass on theirs. For Mariah she promoted her Christmas cd on hsn, Christmas in Washington and had a special since it was a Christmas cd time of the season her promotion was great those were the big promo things she did again for a Christmas cd. Hard Candy as well as Discipline even though they did not sell as well as ILTY were promoted more than ILTY was. Again Whitney did not have any product new I mean since 2002 2003 if you count the Christmas cd. People wanted to see her back at the top I am one of them now if she had dropped another cd in 2010 or even can you say the sales would be the same since you wanna bring sales into. I was talking promotion I have never had a problem with Whitney Houston sales compared to other female artist she beats them she released nowhere near as much material and has outsold Janet almost sold as much as Celine, Mariah and Madonna. I am done with this post I am not attacking Whitney like I stated a thousand times or flip flopping or anything just giving my opinion as a fan.

. To the member bring up Celebration and Number Ones like I said greatest hits collection since Whitney didn't promote hers Madonna and Janet get a pass on theirs.

 

*But see, that is not what your initial statement was. You said the artist’s last product i.e cd and you did not qualify it so until you produce their promo schedule, you are wrong.

 

 For Mariah she promoted her Christmas cd on hsn, Christmas in Washington and had a special since it was a Christmas cd time of the season her promotion was great those were the big promo things she did again for a Christmas cd.

 

**So is this all the receipts that you have to show me because they are woefully inadequate when stacked up against what Whitney did for ILTY. I also would like to let you know that one traditional music promo appearance where the viewing audience is 17-20mil will trum 3-5 promo appearances at little shows where the AI is 1mil to 4mil.  I agree that in the grand scheme of things Mariah did promo for this cd but don’t get it twisted, a lot of it was tied into keeping people guessing about whether she was pregnant or not.To help you out because I’m a fair person, Mariah also did a few entertainment  shows but a lot of that was centered around her pregnancy.  I will also give you that she had one listening party that was attended by reviewers and industry people. Still not equal to the 3 that Whitney did and the multiple interviews & write ups that were done While HSN has a good viewership, and it most certainly helped her cd sales, also remember that ARISTA also did promo for ILTY at QVC although she didn’t personally appear. These promo dates do not come close to what Whitney did so again, your initial statement is not correct. BTW, I’ll let you in on a little secret. I know what promo Mariah did for MC2Y

 

 

 Hard Candy as well as Discipline even though they did not sell as well as ILTY were promoted more than ILTY was.

 

**Really!, Really! I’m supposed to take your word for it when you’ve demonstrated that you have not the basic idea of how marketing/ promo, audience viewership works, who purchases cd, the state of music sales today, 2009, 2005 etc. No Ma’am! I decline. Receipts please! If you cannot specifically state what shows that these artists went on to perform, what magazine covers, what radio shows they went on, you do not get a pass and your statement will not be proven to be accurate. I can tell you as I tried to help you out earlier, the promo for Discipline was Stopped by Island records because the cd was flopping. I’ve already showed you that it sold ~310 in 4 wks which was the first week sales total for ILTY. Try to put this in context, this cd was released in 2008 when music sales were higher than in 2009.Janet complained bitterly that Island abandoned the project as did Jermaine Dupri and Rodney Jerkins who was one of the principal producers so how are you going to try to tell me based on FONT and FONT alone that janet did more promo than Whitney did for ILTY. Again, don’t take my word for it, but tell me the shows she went on to promote, mag covers, radio shows,etc.

 

**Hard Candy- what shows did Madonna go on? What radio shows did she call into? What magazines did she did interviews for? The record will show that she her tour was the main vehicle for promo and not so much promo as we know it.

 

 Again Whitney did not have any product new I mean since 2002 2003 if you count the Christmas cd.

 

**What does this have to do with anything? Neither did Sade who is actually her peer yet when they returned, they had cumulative sales of around 1.3mil for ‘soldier of love’. Are you going to say that people only purchased all those cds out of nostalgia and because they yearned for them back! I don’t buy it.   The only times that I see people purchasing out of nostalgia for the most part is when an artist has died i.e MJ, Amy Winehoue. Etc. Christina Aguilera was gone 4yrs and couldn’t sell more than 280k cds of ‘Bionic’ since June 2009.

 

 People wanted to see her back at the top I am one of them now if she had dropped another cd in 2010 or even can you say the sales would be the same since you wanna bring sales into.

 

**I highly doubt that a cd would have been dropped in 2010 as she is not the type of artist that would drop back to back studio cds 1 year after the next. I mean if you want to go back, the debut was 1985 and WH was 1987! This has never been her M.O, never mind the cd was still relatively fresh in the grand scheme of things 1qtr 2010 and she was gearing up for a international tour so your ‘what if’ makes no sense. I can show you because I actually follow the charts and the stats of other artists not just Whitney, that more often than not,  subsequent cds released by many artists have been on the decline and many times it has nothing to do with promo. Heck, I just provided you with receipts for Madonna,Mariah and janet and you can clearly see how their sales have declined. Even in the case of Celine with the years she released her last 2 cds being higher sales environment, her sales pretty much stayed static.  It has to do with the declining sales music environment, the type of music made, the type of base the music was geared to and in some cases, people just not caring as much.

 

REFRESHER

Mariah Carey

E=Mc2- 2008

MOIA- 2009

See this is your example and sales declined and she promoted- I’m not a big fan of Mariah so I don’t have to hate on her to say that besides MOIA not being a very good cd, there was a music sales decline from 2008 to 2009. Does she get a pass? As you were coming for Whitney with your supposition that again proves that you know nothing about how the music industry work or even the environment that it is operating in. I am not a blind whitney stan so I can say and have said, most likely her next cd will only go gold in the US and I’ve stated the reasons. This is still EXCELLENT for her 30+yrs into her career. Kelly Rowland who had a #1 R*B hit for 7wks, wish she would go gold! Keyshia cole who first 3 cds all either went multi-platinum or platinum wished her last cd, ‘calling all hearts’ could sell gold released in 2010 DEC,

 

**I can show you many examples of artists even doing promo and sales declining or staying static without having to reach that far back and because I put my fingers where my keyboard is, here are some receipts;

 

**Jennifer Hudson- did promo for I Remember me and for one of the weeks, the cd sales declined

Beyonce- just did promo performances on Jimmy Fallon and The view and sales of ‘4’ actually declined

Mariah did several performances during the MOIA era and sales declined for MOIA.

 

**I can tell that you still don’t understand all the intricacies and variances when it comes to marketing and promo. Every artist is not the same and certainly their core bases are very different and anyone who manages them would know this and would customize their promo not flat out say because artist A did so many performances/appearances, artist B must do it! Even some performances on certain shows if it it is not the right demographic won’t help! What was lost on you was that Whitney’s 5 performances hit 50-60mil AI, infinitely more than the 1mil or 3mil AI viewership that Lopez, Chelsey Lately or Rachel Ray would bring!

 

 

I was talking promotion I have never had a problem with Whitney Houston sales compared to other female artist she beats them she released nowhere near as much material and has outsold Janet almost sold as much as Celine, Mariah and Madonna. I am done with this post I am not attacking Whitney like I stated a thousand times or flip flopping or anything just giving my opinion as a fans.

 

**Yes, you are done because you have been shown to be, wait for it…..wait for it….

 

THE EMPEROR WITH NO CLOTHES!

 

LESSON TO BE LEARNED:

1. Don’t spew opinions as fact if you can’t provide receipts because you never know when you will be called on to produce them.

 

2. If you can’t produced said receipts either admit that you were wrong or say, I have nothing to back my claim up with

 

 

 

p.s Give an opinon re promo/sales etc all that other stuff, it's been shown by you what you really think so I'm over that. However, realize that your opinion if even as 'FACT' that you may be subjected to sustantiate what you based your 'factual opinon' on and if you can't provide receipts then you are wrong and it will be considered by me 'Whitney bashing' unless withdrawn. why bring up a negative point as 'fact' if you cant' support it!

  

You win. Let me be clear why my wish was for Whitney to do more promo since she was gone so long. I never said I knew all there was to know about the music business like you seem to so you got me there again. As far as dates for promotion I never said I had exact dates and times of when they promoted this and that if you do please inform. You provided sales figures which I never brought up. Again you have a breakdown of weekly sales figures. Again you win I don't have sales figures week to week so you have way more knowledge than me no I not being a smarta**.

@LSaturn01, it really isn't a matter of 'winning' but just keeping facts straight and separate from 'perception' and 'opinion'.  I understand your wish for Whitney to do more promo as a fan. Trust me, I do. Most would love to see their fav more often out and performing or just talking. HOwever, to say that she didn't do enough promo, or not a much as some of her peers on their last outing is not right.  Even if you go back to Janet's 'Discipline' or Madonna's 'Hard Candy' you will see that ILTY promo really wasn't that much different and it sold more in her weaker sales climate. Both Janet/Madonna didn't do as much promo for their last cds as Whitney did. Mariah's for MCTU, while she did promote, I don't think it was the equivalent of ILTY, in fact, I'll say it wasn't .  Mariah promotes  quite a bit more and she probably did more for 'MOIA', In fact, I'd go ahead and give her that one but what was the net result of that, 1/2 the sales of ILTY and 1/3 of ILTY's WW total.

FYI, only because i happen to be looking at some Janet stuff all last month, 'Discipline' was a very frustrating time for Janet and her fans, just to give you the reality of the situation, here is what one music observer wrote in 2008 who is also a fan:

'....

Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:48 pm

the only reason this album has flopped is not 1 bit of promo ... we all no someone like janet has to get out there and promote as the us arent feeling her on radio so she needs to show up everywhere, i mean 5 appearances the week of release and none after that is shocking .. she cant just sell off her name and expect high numbers,i believe if she makes a really summery hot video for Luv and gets it sent to pop stations all over the radio then she can come back and use oprah and letterman,leno,regis nd kelly .. any other show you americans have to regain sales for discipline. someone like L.A Reid is not stupid, he knows what he's doing, i mean look at the likes of avril and mariahs albums, they sell tons so hes smart in what hes guan do im sure, maybe its janet who cudnt be bothered promotin lol ..." Just of the top of my head, pretty much Janet just did promo release week and I believe one a week or two after just as the person about stated. Of the top of my head she did: TRL interview/performance- now we know TRL doesn't exist any longer GMA performance Ellen performance Larry King - interview I thin that these 2 came later (as can be seen, combined, the viwership isn't that much) Tyra Banks Show- I don't believe she performed on this show, it was an extended interview with lots of corny sections Jimmy Kimmel- performance CD Signings I know she did one at Best Buy in L.A., release week. I'm not sure that she did one in NYC Billboard Mag cover a few radio station call ins Parade Magazine Cover and interview (newspaper insert) BET All Acess granted for the video + and a few other smaller things before release.  As I stated, Island/L.A.Reid stopped all promo because the CD really flopped badly. To put this in perspective, it sold Discipline: US sales of 340,125 in 6 weeks Months later, she did go on some shows to promote her 'rockwitch u tour' but by this time, she andIsland records had parted ways and she did not have a label.  The tour would eventually go on to have 9 or so of it's cancelled dates never rescheduled, and the Japanese leg never got off, it was also cancel.  Discipline, trust me was a bad era for Janet and her fans and no one wants to relive that..

Don't want to make this about Janet as it would belong in Divas bbs but just don't give some an idea of label beef and an idea of how things can go wrong with an artist/cd isn't supported by the label:


http://blogs.sohh.com/soul/2008/06/janet_apologize.html

I had the pleasure of interviewing Janet Jackson yesterday as part of a teleconference with a select few fellow bloggers... And I'm sorry to tell you guys this but it's looking like the label is not planning to allow any more singles from Discipline to be released.

Here's what Janet had to say when I asked her what her next single would be:

"That’s pretty difficult to say, only because of the record label at this point. We started off with “Feedback” and the label and myself haven’t quite seen eye to eye since the "Feedback" single so they’ve kind of basically stopped all promotion. I’m trying to figure out a way to say this, but just to say it and to be quite honest, they just stopped all promotion whatsoever on the album so I don’t think you’re going to hear another single off this album."

Damn. What is going over there at Island???

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http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003813980

Janet Jackson Dissatisfied With New Album Promo

Janet Jackson
June 09, 2008, 2:45 PM ET
Hillary Crosley, N.Y.

Janet Jackson has aired her frustrations with Island Def Jam, whom she claims is no longer supporting her label debut, "Discipline." The album has sold 392,000 copies in the United States since its February release, according to Nielsen SoundScan.

Jackson told SOHH.com that Island discontinued promoting "Discipline" after her single, "Rock With U," failed to chart. Additional friction apparently resulted from Island also releasing "LUV" as a single, despite Jackson's wish that "LUV" be worked on its own.

"Luv" peaked at No. 34 on Billboard's Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart, while the first single released from the new album, "Feedback," reached No. 39.

In a statement released exclusively to Billboard, an Island Def Jam spokesperson says, "Unfortunately we haven't experienced the results we would have liked with this new album. But we respect and support Janet."

Jackson further claimed that due to dwindling label support, she won't be able to visit Europe as part of her upcoming Live Nation-promoted Rock Witchu tour, which begins Sept. 7 in Vancouver.

However, the Island Def Jam spokesperson says the label "has nothing to do with Janet's tour."

Nikray wrote:

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Well, well unless anyone else has in evidence it looks like Janet is lazy, Madonna is lazy, Mariah is lazy, oh my from reading CD also toss in Britney and X-Tina.  So who is not lazy...hmmmm!!!!

LOL! , you know Nick, I really think that many here live in a bubble and CW and don't know what is considred 'normal' promo and probably just sees the 2-3 big artists who are in the peak of their career doing extreme promo.  You see differently because you understand marketing, you are on the divas bbs and you actually read and comprehend what is going on with other artists in the industry for the most part.

Britney has done so little promo that it's funny. Xtina did an adequate amount of promo concentrated around the first 2-3wks, cd flopped and that was Delia wrote the note! Monica and Tasia those did a fair amount of promo and then it stopped - the label's budget was met and there was no more $$ in the budget.I don't know any J/Arista r & b females artist that had more than 2 videos except Alicia Keys.  I think Mary J Blige on Geffen had I believe 3 videos (the One, I Am, and I believe the song with Trey Songz' but even still her fans were complaining of not enough promo. CD sold around 850k and promo was concentrated around the first few weeks and then nothing, Keri hilson has done qutie a bit of promo. I will say that she stands out and other than Polow Da Don believeing in her, I'd bet that both of her cds are in the red and she hasn't made any money from then except from touring etc. Keyshia Cole, same thing- minimum promo, cd not doing well- promo stopped and on to the next cd. Jazmine Sullivan- truly a mess, very little promo and I believe 1 video.

Just the way of the business and it's clear, Whitney's promo was more than adequate. When I have time, I'll go over Madonna's promo and I can tell you that 'Celebration's' promo was almost non-existant and 'Hard Candy' outside of concert dates was nothing to write home about. mariah did do quite a bit of promo for MOIA but nothing out of the ordinary compared to Whitney but when added inher pregnancy game talk, for a xmas album, she did do a fair amount of promo.

But why do I think that we'll hair the same tag line in about 4-5mths, lol! If some here were to see how fans of other divas complain, they would think that we are lucky. Janet in terms of her musical career, her fans lament!